Showing posts with label quivers. Show all posts
Showing posts with label quivers. Show all posts

Monday, 17 February 2020

Archery in Thorgal comics

Thorgal is a fantasy comic album series by a Belgian writer Jean Van Hamme, and Polish artist Grzegorz Rosinski, one of the most famous European comic series of all time (says the backcover text). It tells the adventurous life story of orphan Conanesque (he even have long black hair) viking warrior called Thorgal, who fights tirelessly for freedom and justice, as we modern people experience and imagine those virtues, and not like ancient or medieval people. Unusual of other cliché barbarian characters Thorgal doesn't use a sword or a huge axe as his main weapon, instead he is a master of the bow. Exciting! Let's see.

I only had the third album (out of over thirty!), which I accidentally bumped into in a library of Oodi (which' opening in Helsinki last year had more people than books in it, which is very wrong for a library!). So all these pictures are from the third album (or second in English album series?) in the Thorgal series, called The Three Elders of Aran (Aranin maan kolme vanhusta in Finnish, Les Trois vieillards du pays d'Aran in original French). The texts are in Finnish.

Now to the archery mistakes:

1. This arrow taken straight out of Thorgals quiver is way too short. It's a pet peeve of artists (mine included) to draw arrows too short when they are not being shot. It is hard to understand that the length of the arrow is really significant, longer than it's shooters outstretched arm. The arrowtip is also too big.


2. Thorgal carries his bow strung and tucked around his body. This is not a good way to carry a bow. First of all it's a nuisance, a powerful warbow or hunting bow will hurt your chest if it's carried like that, since the fistmele of the bow (distance between the handle of the bow and the string) is most probably shorter than the thickness of the archers chest. Thus the bowstring presses against the chest all the time. This might not be a problem if the bow is carried like this for a short period of time, but this is how Thorgal is shown carrying his bow all the time. The other reason is that keeping the bow constantly strung (string attached to the bow arc) it slowly but gradually loses it's power when the wood curves into the shape it's being held. This again is not a problem if done occasionally for short time, but always carrying a bow like that is not good.
I have not seen any historical illustrations of archers carrying their bows like this. Usually bows are carried in bow quivers on the hip, rarely on the back, sometimes bows are shown being carried on the shoulder, but not like this around the upper body. But this is like many fantasy characters, most famously Legolas, carry their bows around.

3. Thorgal carries his arrows on a staple fantasy back quiver, which is not very useful, furthermore because the quiver opens on the left shoulder and him being right handed the arrows should be on the right shoulder.


This picture is here to show that the baddies broke Thorgals bow (and sword) in half. This bow is unrepearable now. Easier would've been just the cut the bowstring, which usually was done to render a bow incapable of shooting (although an archer might have a spare bowstring or two somewhere on him, most usually inside his hat to keep it dry, but then again Thorgal doesn't have a hat, or a bag or any other means of transporting goods on him either...). The bowstring was spared here because it's easier to depict repaired bowstave than a repaired bowstring in a comic book.


4. In the next scene Thorgal has repaired his broken bow by threading the halves together. I doubt this would work very well at all. Maybe he's able to shoot something with it, but not very far, and it might brake in two quite easily again. Furthermore this repair shortens the bow about 30-40 cm estimating from the pictures. This makes using the same bowstring impossible, because it's way too long. They thought readers wouldn't notice such a thing, even if they noticed it themselves.

Now he uses the classic fantasy rope arrow trick to hook a grappling iron over the crenellation of the keep. Maybe it could theoretically work, I don't know, but seems quite fanciful. Certainly there is no historical precedence of doing something like that. Grappling hooks were in fact shot from catapults in antiquity (to grapple other ships in naval battles), not with bows (yes I know he first shoots a string, and then uses that to pull the hook there, but it seems like this trick has too many parts that could go wrong).



This is one of Thorgals rivals in a competition over the princess (who's already his bride). The ugly ranger dressed in fantasy studded leather armour (which never existed in real life) he shoots a longbow from a horseback. Longbows were not regularly used on horseback because they're too long for effectively being shot from there. the bows lower limb will interfere with the horses body too much. That's why horse archers tended to use very short (recurve) bows, or then make their bows asymmetrical, the lower limb being shorter than the upper (like Japanese yumi).
Here the character has turned his bow in a 45 degree angle in order to be able to shoot without having the horses neck interfering with the bow, which is exactly the thing you would do if you would have to shoot too long a bow on horseback. No mistake here. He also has his arrows on a hip quiver, like one should do.


5. What is this? This is completely ridiculous! That ranger character holds the bow with one hand (being the other hand he shot with the last time), and holds the arrow only between his bowhand fingers! This would not work with a real powerful bow. Nobody is strong enough to hold the bow strung like that with only one hand. The bow should be a children's toy in order for that to happen. Also the aim is ruined, it's just not possible to shoot with one hand only. It's quite a stupid trick, doesn't even look cool. I have never seen this mistake before, so I don't even have a name for it, and I doubt (and really hope) I don't ever see it again, so there's no point of creating a category for it.

Friday, 20 May 2016

Quivers on hips, not on back

There have been debate after Lars Andersen's excellent archery video, and it's sequel, about if back quivers were used in history.

I received a comment telling me that some unnamed experts had provided Andersen's with pictographical evidence of back quivers used in Medieval Europe. Andersen himself showed in his video some pictures of quivers hanging at the hip belt of archers, and he does not deny the existence of back quivers altogether.

But I have never seen a proof of medieval or modern period European archers using back quivers. In the manner of proper scientific method I am always open for corrections, so I ask you to provide me a medieval, or modern period (or whatever period), picture, drawing, painting, fresco, graffito, relief, statue, miniature, mosaic, glass painting, etc. pictographical evidence of European (or from anywhere) archer or crossbowman using a back quiver.

So...

WANTED: A historical illustration of archer wearing a quiver on his back.

In the meantime, I will provide my own evidence. I tried to find any image of back quivers, but mostly couldn't find any. Here are a collection of pictures I found of archers and crossbowmen, and almost all of them are using hip quivers. Some had tuck their arrows inside their belts, some carried them by hand and some didn't have spare arrows at all (artists mistake?), but not much back quivers.

There are one dubious example of a back quiver I could find. It's on the famous Bayeux tapestry, which tells the story of William the Conqueror conquering England roughly one thousand years ago. The picture is not of highest quality, because of it's age and the method of making. Anatomy, perspective and several other things are incorrect in this tapestry, so I don't know if this counts as firm proof. And the belt/baldric of that one quiver is depicted wrong, I am not sure if they have tried to depict a back quiver or a hip quiver, since the quiver is at shoulder level, but the belt looks like a hip belt and not like a shoulder baldric. Even if that would be a proper back quiver, it is only one picture, the only one I've seen so far. All the three other bowmen in that same scene of the Bayeux tapestry have ordinary hip quivers.

I will show the Bayeux tapestry example last. First, pictures of archers with hip quivers:





From medieval Roman 'Alexander manuscript'.









Death of Saint Edmund, the King of Essex.


Depiction of Burgundian archers in the battle of Grandson (1476) in Lucerne Chronicle.


Mythical man-animal creature.








Shooting of St. Sebastian.


Archer Drawing a Bow by Pietro Vannucci Perugino.


Looks like Leonardo DaVinci's style to me.


Asiatic horse archer.



Horse archer.






Shooting of St. Sebastian, once more.



Early modern period Hungarian.


Knight on horseback with a bow.


Polish king Jagiello, 1418.


Some pictures from Islamic books too.


And horse archers.



And now the Bayeux tapestry picture, which has three archers with hip quivers and one with something which looks like a hip quiver but not worn properly:



Since this post is quite long already, I will continue with pictures of bowmen without a quiver in the next post, later.

So far: 39 different pictures with hip quivers, only one which may be a back quiver.

Wednesday, 28 January 2015

Lars Andersen part 2: myths of archery

Lars Andersen performing a bow trick.

Almost immediately when Lars Andersen's speed shooting video went viral, there emerged one and another column of criticism on different newspapers and web sites, written usually by self-claimed, but still unnamed, "archery experts", who angrily (and quite enviously) bashed his techniques, claimed them being nothing more than circus tricks, useless in warfare, and even accused him of 'distortion of history', a pretty serious claim with only misunderstandings backing it.

I want to correct those now. If you still haven't seen Andersen's amazing skills on video, you can find it in my last post in this blog.

Back quiver, a Hollywood myth, persisting over nine decades!

Those envy "experts" misunderstood the point clearly stated in Andersen's video, that back quivers weren't really used much at all in history, since they are very impractical. They thought that Andersen meant that quivers weren't used at all, then making obvious statements, that "no one would carry twenty to forty arrows in their hands". Of course not. Of course quivers were used. The thing was: quivers weren't used on back. That's the Hollywood myth, which they think looks 'cool', and because of that, every modern archer wants to replicate that and keep their arrows on their back. They probably haven't even tried to use hip quivers, although they would be much more practical, easier and faster to use.

Medieval longbowman with a proper hip quiver.

Another point was made about 'distortion of history', which is a crappy statement. Andersen claimed that the techniques he have discovered and practised have been lost in time for quite some time. This is in fact true. The "experts" claimed that these techniques were only lost in Europe, but not in Asia, where they would still prevail even today. I would like to ask these "experts", how many cultures in Asia still wage war, or even hunt, with traditional bows? I give you the answer too: zero! Also Andersen's techniques are based on Saracen archery, and Saracen (a generic term for arabic muslims in late Midde Ages) culture exists no more (replaced by muslim culture and different national identities, certainly the art of fast archery has been lost until now).

The "experts" gave as an example some traditional Japanese archery (kyudo) practised today. But the thing is: kyudo is a martial art, a sport, not a way of fighting in a war! These are two completely different things. In kyudo the archers use a long time for aiming each shot, and accuracy is the main goal in it. They are not fighting against an enemy, who would try to kill them. Also, sport bows are only half as powerful as war bows would be. That means they require much less force, and they can be held longer in the full drawn aiming position. With a real war bow, an archer doesn't really "aim" with the arrow, he knows where it will go when he releases, he just draws quickly and releases immediately (because with a powerful war bow the full draw requires immense amount of strength and if someone tries to aim with a full draw, their hands will get shaky and the arrow will fly off the target).

A modern Japanese kyudo archer holds his arrows on his back, not in a full quiver, but in a very small quiver called yebira, which doesn't hold the arrow shafts as tightly as a western full quiver, and actually the arrows can be drawn from the side, not from behind a shoulder, like in movies.

A historical kyudo archer. Japanese archery is based on wholly different techniques than European or Saracen archery, which Lars Andersen represents.